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Testimonies from all over. Be inspired by stories of Christian transformation from around the world. Hear miraculous coming-to-Jesus stories from all walks of life and be amazed at how God writes a story in all of us. And stay for the Sendoff, where we feature an artist’s take on each testimony shared. One80 is a production of OneWay Ministries.
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Episode 11: Ahmed Joktan, From Jihad to Christ, Part 1 (Saudi Arabia)
Don't miss the amazing story of Ahmed Joktan, a Saudi-born jihadist turned Christian evangelist. You will be amazed at his coming-to-Jesus story, but there's so much to experience in Part One of his show.
Hear what it was like to grow up in Saudi Arabia in a fundamentalist Islamic sect as the son of the Mufti of Mecca, how he memorized the Qu'ran at age 13, his struggles to learn English, the amazing vision he witnessed and the mysterious building of the white pillars. Ahmed will give you a rare, inside glimpse of the mind of a radical Muslim.
Be encouraged as you see that God can reach anyone, anywhere. Enjoy today's Sendoff, featuring Prayercast, Saudi Arabia.
Never miss a One80, including Jihad to Christ, Part Two:
https://one80podcast.com/subscribe/
Mecca in My Wake, Dr. Joktan’s memoir:
https://meccatochrist.org/product/from-mecca-to-christ/
Dr. Joktan’s ministry, Mecca to Christ:
https://meccatochrist.org/
Follow Mecca to Christ on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/mecca_to_christ/
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=mecca%20to%20christ%20international
Pray for Muslims as they pray during Ramadan:
https://www.prayercast.com/love-muslims-landing.html
Prayercast, Saudi Arabia:
https://www.prayercast.com/saudi-arabia.html
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One80 Podcast Transcript:
Ahmed Joktan: From Mecca to Christ, Part 1
Hear the show here: Ahmed is the first to say that his shocking story does not reflect the majority of Muslims, but his particular upbringing.
This transcript may have errors that veer from the accuracy found in the audio podcast recording.
A J: Thank you for having me.
And I would extend a warm welcome to also the listener. Oh
Ryan Henry: yeah, absolutely. We love our listeners. Man, we've got a lot to talk about today and I'm just like so fascinated by your story. And so, but before we, you know, before we dive too deep, we do have a little tradition here. We have a random question generator.
Okay. Brought to you by chat deck. So I do have a random question for you. So Ahmed, if you could be anywhere in the world for new year's Eve this year, where would you most want to be?
A J: I want to be with Jesus. I think that is the best place to be. But I know that Jesus is with me and doing the will of our father in heaven is the, , the place that I want to be in the new year. So I'll be out sharing the gospel, praise
Ryan Henry: Good. Now, where do you typically go out?
A J: I actually go out to locations where Muslims are . And I just meet Muslims and share the love of Jesus Christ with them. Many, , see that, that I'm not there to be against. But I'm there to deliver a message of love and hope through Jesus.
Wow.
Ryan Henry: Ahmed, that's amazing. Well, let's get to your story Ahmed friends. I want to tell you all of our listeners, Ahmeds story is, absolutely shocking. And I also want to say, just please know that his past doesn't represent all Muslims. And he would be the first one to say that, but just also know that it's completely true.
Like everything he's going to tell you today is, absolutely true. It's found in his book from Mecca to Christ and he actually has 21 signed affidavits to prove it as documentation for coming to the U S so you can find the link to the book in our show notes. So, Ahmed let's, let's just jump in we would love to hear about growing up Muslim in Saudi Arabia.
So if you could just talk to us, what was your childhood like?
A J: Yeah. It will be different than the childhood of any child here in the U S totally different. So I'm easy to understand Mecca a, is a valley between two mountains and it's like a dry desert or Arizona kind of climate. So, , growing up there, , Muslims fast one month in a year called Ramadan.
And when you fast in a dry heat, it's extremely difficult. So, in Islam, the child must start performing religious duties. At the age of seven or eight, some even way before that, like me and I just remember going to the mosques whether my dad's mosque or other mosque five times a day.
And you need to understand Sunni Muslims, not all Muslims, but as Sunni Muslims, they pray five times a day toward Mecca, Saudi Arabia. And, , it's not, , pleasant times is like, you know, the first prayer is almost before the sunrise. So while you were in deep sleep, you have to wake up to go to pray.
And if you are a kid, you will be crying, , you know, your brother or sister trying to drag you out to the mosque so you can pray growing up also, I because. Of my dad's position. I was forced to memorize the entire Quran and that's not a simple task, so yeah. I mean, , you have to think of the Quran as a long song, so it's like the Psalms, but it's a way bigger than that.
Yeah. So every day especially before the first prayer the email would ask us to recite those chapters from the Quran, usually a page or two from the Quran. And you have to do that without a single mistake. So you just barely wake up and you have to do something that is almost perfect.
Otherwise it would be punished. Yeah. And the punishment is a little bit severe, you know, for a kid to have. So basically you will be put to shame before the entire mosque that's number one, number two, they will take you and lay your head to the ground on your back and then put your feet up.
And the feet will, you know, be facing the worshipers that the people in the mosque. And then they will start beating , your feet basically foot will be in kind of style. Cold, felt like a cell. If you're sitting there in the early morning and after the prayer, all you hear is that whip. You will say, I'll do, I'll do whatever I can not to make a mistake.
So which I tried my best to do so. However, I failed a few times then I received that punishment, but that resulted of me memorizing the entire Qu’ran at age of 13. Oh my gosh.
Ryan Henry: that's correct. Gosh, . Yeah. So, so can you tell us how many times you were punished
A J: about 21 times. And I remember one of those times that I couldn't walk to the house. I had to crawl on my knees to the house. And, you know, when you crawl on asphalt, that is harsh, , your needs will be also have, , a bit of , blood and other stuff because it's rubbed against a harsh surface.
Ryan Henry: Oh my gosh. Wow. Well, you were talking about your father's position, he is , the mufti of Mecca. Can you explain to us , what is that.
A J: So a mufti is a religious position for a scholar to give authorized legal opinion in the matter of the Islamic faith.
What does that mean? So I have to take you back to Judaism. So in the Judy's and in that, in that system, they have rabbis teachers who tell the Jews is this allowed or not allowed, but this lawful, according to the law that's given to Moses or not in Islam they have similar concept to that.
And so the mufti will, tell Muslims, is this allowed, according to the Sharia law, or not lawful so that is the position there.
Ryan Henry: Okay. So basically kind of like functioning as a judge. Yes. Yeah. Okay.
. So, so what exactly , does that mean for your father? Can you elaborate on like exactly that role and what types of things he was able to.
A J: So as an Islamic scholar, he's able to tell people what exactly they should do in light of the Islamic law, in addition, he's teaching at the mosque.
So he goes around the country, teach Muslims, especially after prayers. They have a bit of time to teach. And also formal students who have, you know students across the country that he teach and they follow whatever he says, but then we have one grand Mufti in Saudi Arabia. And my father was a student under the grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia.
Ryan Henry: So as the grand Mufti is it essentially like , the top dog? The head honcho?
A J: Yeah. So it's like the Pope, you know, so it's, it's religious system, so , in the past they had actually so much power than the actual government of Saudi Arabia. Currently they don't have as much power as before.
Ryan Henry: Okay. Yeah. . Thank you for, for sharing that. So, so then, then you went to the madrasa what is a madrasa and what did you do there?
A J: So madrasa in Arabic means school. And literally means school. And so any madrasa, you know, you can call any school is a madrasa, but the school that I went to was specialize in Islamic studies, meaning you know, if you go to a public school, they teach many subjects.
But they don't focus on one thing in this specialized, madrasa or Islamic school, they focus on Islamic sciences. So you have the Quran, which you have to memorize to write, and then you have the Hadith, which is what. said and did, and then you have other stuff that the Islamic scholars through the history have produced, like, is this legal, not legal you know, cases like that, that you have to learn.
So yeah, so I went there and in that school you don't teach us English because English at that time was viewed as the language of infidels and infidelity. So it was not allowed in that school. And so, yeah, I graduated from high school without knowing a single word or a letter of English probably, maybe H I.
I that's the only thing that I have. Hi. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Henry: Wow. Okay. So take us to you and your relationship with your dad, you know What was the relationship like?
A J: So you need to understand in this type of Islam, now, let me just explain, not all Muslims have the same kind of beliefs as the ones in Saudi Arabia, which is wahabism.
So we have about 2 billion Muslims everywhere. Only small percentage of those Muslims are as extremists as the sect. So in this sect of Islam wahabism they do believe that a Muslim must marry a man must marry, you know, more than one wife polygamy. So it's practiced alongside this sect of Islam.
So my, my dad was an, is married to four wives and growing up with more than one step-mom it's a bit different. So you know, they were not in the same house. Neither in the same city. So my relationship with my dad was a little bit distant because there are so many kids there.
Right. So, and, and his time and religious duties are divided, must be, be divided equally. So I got a little time with my father.
Ryan Henry: Yeah. And do you know how many kids he has?
A J: Well, I believe by now probably 25 plus because I was disowned almost 11 years ago, so yeah. Wow.
Ryan Henry: Wow. That's just like, it's just hard to imagine, you know, I've got I've got seven kids of my own and I like finding time, you know,
A J: just so you know how hard it is.
Ryan Henry: . Especially you mix that with like what you're saying, his religious duties. I, I can imagine that there's a lot of, yeah.
Kind of brokenness, you know, there with that relationship of a father is so important. Okay. What was the cost you know, to make your father proud? I mean, did you find yourself striving,
A J: so to stand out, but, you know, among twenty-five plus other kids, I basically all of us had to do something special, right.
To make us stand out among the others. And I think for me, I wanted to be a jihadist, not only because they'll make me special there, but because of the promises that I read in the Quran that is, , for those who commit jihad and for the legacy of my tribe, since the beginning of Islam. So, , growing up, we'd been told that you are for the glory of Islam as a person.
And we're being taught about the glorious days of the other jihadists here and there. And to the point that we being sent to Islamic. Jihadist camps that would train kids, the minds of the kids. When I memorize the entire Quran at the age of 13, you need to understand that in Islam, if your kid memorize the Quran without a mistake, then the kid will give you the crown of glory.
So we'll give the father, , the crown of glory is so the father will look at the son it's like, where's my crown, basically. So me and memorizing the Koran, I handed that crown to my father. So that's a seal, but also I wanted to pursue that path because that's what I've been taught, you know?
Ryan Henry: Wow. No pressure.
Yeah. I mean, you're your father's crown, you know, depending on whether you remembered everything that's
A J: in the Quran. Yeah. It's intense. Yeah.
Ryan Henry: Yeah. Can you take us a little bit more into the details of you know, what school was like? The madrasa?
A J: Yeah, I mean the, the, madrasa in there, they, this madrasa was a fundamentalist, madrasa. So they will teach things that is against the Jews and Christians and, you know, so much hatred there that is built up through the years.
But I have to make a side note here, not all Muslims like that. Right. You know, there, there is about 2 billion Muslims across the globe today, and only less than 1% believe those kinds of beliefs, most Muslims, you know, are peaceful Muslims and they're Muslims by name. They have no idea what the Koran is saying.
We have so much of the old Testament, new Testament and the current, right. It's really a law about Jesus. In fact, you know, the Quran the Muslims, holy book does not mention anybody in glorious way, like Jesus because his special, what was that? Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Henry: So they acknowledged that he is special.
A J: Yes. You know, and you know, Jesus said, search the books about me.
Right. So here we go. And I, I do believe, you know that satan, wants to distort the truth and put here and there seeds of shadows and seeds of darkness just to deceive people. And in contrast those who followed Jesus, truly, they do not do that. . Basically they, they just tell the truth and they're not distorted the word of God.
They don't use underhanded methods. Satan does, according to second Corinthians four.
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Ryan Henry: yeah. So Ahmed so was considered a prophet. How many prophets are there in the religion?
A J: , so according to the Quran now, I'm, I'm going to answer this, the current to the Sunni Islam. And according to the Quran because if you go to other sects of Islam, which more than 72 we'll go into, you know basically so many practices that we can count, but according to , the Sunni Islam, and according to the Quran there are only , few that are mentioned by name profits mentioned by name.
And the Quran does say that some profits that we have told you about them, some profits that we did not tell you about them. But the the profits that mentioned by name are Noah, Abraham, Moses Jesus. And if you're a Muslim, you have to look at it as. , but only those are mentioned. By name as these special messengers.
There are some minor prophets that mentioned like once or twice, but not as many of those basically four prophets.
Ryan Henry: Let's go, let's go over to take us to the jihad training now really quick. I'm just going to a site here, jihad training that was different than madrasa.
A J: Yes. So in themadrasa, they teach you all the formal things. Jihad training is a camp in the desert. They take you there. They show you all kinds of videos and how to kill this, how to do that, how to pull the trigger in this, how, you know, all that kinds of stuff that jihadists do. And but for madrasa, it's a formal training.
There are books there, curriculums that teach you how to hate the Christians and Jews and you know, other things. That's not a, it's not based on love. So imagine me, you know, hearing for the first time and you know, Jesus saying, love your enemies. And I'm like, what you hope for that? Yeah. All my life I've been taught that, you know, if someone hits you on the right cheek hit him 10 times and the lift one.
So but you know, so to hear, love your enemies, I'm like, w what's going on here? This is something different, totally new. But it's only coming from a true and divine God for a purpose.
Ryan Henry: Yeah. Wow. ,so the jihad training, so they would literally teach you how to take peoples' lives.. Yeah. How
A J: to kill, destroy a steel.
And so you can advance the Islamic. Territory's basically
Ryan Henry: now for a jihadist is the end goal is supposed to be that you, you pay the ultimate price or is it kind of try to survive as long as you can wreak as much damage, but if you die in the process, then you're blessed.
Like what, what's the mindset there? Well, the
A J: mindset there for a jihad is, is to go to heaven. You need to understand that according to the Quran there is no sure way of salvation except to kill and are killed in the process. And if you, oh, if you have your Quran with you just all been to chapter nine, verse 1, 1, 1, 9, 11, 1 o'clock each time, that's why it's happening.
Right? So if you go there, it says that for Allah have purchased a life and properties from the believers in exchange of paradise, they fight in the case of Allah. So they kill and are killed. This is a true promise, bind it in him, the gospel, the Torah, and the Quran, and who is truer to his covenant than Allah.
So rejoice in the transaction that you have contracted and in there is the great atonement. So, you know so as a Muslim who memorized the Quran and you stumble in such verse, you know that through the Quran, there is no such sure way of salvation except through this way. And then you find this verse, so you, of course you want to jihad because you want to go to heaven, right?
Who doesn't. Right. But you know, here's the thing in contrast, , what Jesus offers is way better than, you know, killing someone else and dying in the process. In fact, Jesus died for you. So you didn't even need to kill anybody. And what you offer your blood will not be accepted before a sight of a just God, because as a human, you are not complete, not perfect, not holy only God is while the word of God, Jesus who is a true representation of God is complete, is perfect, is holy.
And that is accepted before the, , the sight of God. So as a jihadist you thirst for salvation, and if you see this verse, you say, I found my way, but problem is here is you have to kill someone and die in the process. So it's not about you being victorious. No, basically you being kamikaze in the
Ryan Henry: process.
Yeah. Right, right now, did you so you actually attended the training. Okay. Did at any point, are you doubting this? Are you fearful? Like what if this doesn't actually take me to heaven. Did you have those concerns and doubts?
A J: Oh, not a single one. Wow. Well there is no room of doubt, you know? I mean, you have seen so many people doing it before you, and you don't know any better, nobody's coming to Saudi Arabia and sharing the gospel.
Right. So this is the only thing that I know. So I was hundred thousand percent sure that this is a way there's not, not a single other way that can take me to paradise and whatever offers you know, except killing someone and killing myself in the process.
Ryan Henry: Hmm. , I I'm curious, you had mentioned that you know, you're from the tribe that, essentially, launched the attacks against our country nine 11.
Do you remember that moment when you heard of the attacks and, and what
A J: was that I do. And it's back in Saudi Arabia at that time, the fundamentalists were there. This spirit of jihad is still there. So that spirit is there. So when they committed this heinous crime against the United States I remember that the sky were filled with bullets. It's like, you know, extravagant winning and , preachers were, , preaching on the pulpits in the mosque that the great Satan have fallen down.
And because at that time, the United States looked at as the great Satan today Iran, you know, if you look at the protests in Iran that saying, you know, they chanted death , to America and you know, they chanted America is a great satan. And so at that time the U S looked at it as a mighty country and it's untouchable.
So to be touched that way the Muslims, whether it's Saudi Arabia or Iran being rejoicing over that, it's just like, you know, that's the greatest thing that happened at that time. So I remember, you know, the sky is filled with bullets, tracer bullets, you know, when you shoot the tracer bullets would lit with red at the back of the bullets.
So go into the sky and , , there was a great feast . They will put platters filled with rice. That is 10 feet in diameter. It's so big to do. You can swim actually in the rice if you want. Yeah, so, so so yeah, it was celebration
Ryan Henry: at that time.
Yeah. Oh my gosh. Wow. How old, how old were you when that happened?
A J: I think I was about 10 years old,
Ryan Henry: 10 years old. And so everyone's celebrating yes. All around you. Wow. And it's just wild to me to think that from there, from your perspective, America is labeled as the great Satan
A J: yeah. So , the United States being called, I mean still called today by Iran. That is the, the great Satan and it must be destroyed. So the reason why is because the fundamentalists, , they are not open to hear anybody else. They only like their way.
And if they look at freedoms as means to destroy their power. So the motto here in the United States is freedom, right? , and many advocates from the United States. Are trying to grant people who live under oppressive rules, such freedoms, however, , the opposition, those fundamentalists, they don't want that.
And they want control and didn't want to give grant anybody any freedom. So that's why it looked at the U S as a great Satan. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Henry: Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it. Cause it's just gives us and our listeners like such an inside understanding of kind of how somebody can grow up in this and do the things that they do.
But it's literally like, I mean, in this particular sect from the, from a very young age. Yes. Okay. So, but let's just, let's keep going. Cause I mean, your story just gets better and better. I know that you went to medical school, so why, why did you choose medical school and medicine instead of , following in your father's footsteps?
A J: So in the madrasa and the school we've been taught about the great Islamic scholars who first were medical doctors then muftis later on in their lives. And I'm like, oh, I want to do that. I want to be exactly like those Islamic scholars. So when I graduated from high school, I wanted to join college of medicine to follow that path.
And knowing that ultimately I would be like my father a mufti. But I wanted to, fellow those examples. So I applied and of course my father was not happy about that. He wanted me to be just like him and Islamic scholar, and there was long discussion. And I explained to my dad that this is the way forward, according to , those Islamic scholars and he reluctantly accepted that.
But that was not the biggest challenge. The biggest challenge I faced was actually in the classroom
Ryan Henry: and actually in medical school.
A J: Yeah. So understand that I have not studied a word of English and in Saudi Arabia, medicine is taught in English. So imagine me sitting in that classroom, looking at the screen in front of me with a totally different language and that language that I cannot understand anything, what they're saying, , you know?
So that was a huge challenge for me to decipher a new language that have not seen in my
Ryan Henry: life. It's not even like just common language you're in school. So it's academic language and those are very different
A J: mixed with Latin as well, remember it's medicine..
Ryan Henry: Yes. Right, right. Oh my gosh. So you didn't just turn around and like walk out. You stayed
A J: , so yeah, so I mean, understand that I did not come from a culture of innocence and guilt, like here in the United States, it's a culture of shame and honor.
And if you just withdraw, that is a great shame upon your household and what the people would say about you. And, , people would walk in the mosque and tell your dad, oh, your son is a loser because he couldn't, complete medical school. So that will be a huge shame not upon me, but , upon my tribe, it's not the thinking of the individual thinking of I, but it is the we, so if I fail, I put shame on the entire people behind me.
So that classroom, I was like, scratching my head. What can I do? There must be a way. So I scoured the the ideas out there and the best one was to take the, basically the materials and scan, extract the words copy, go through Google translate, paste translate. However it was a very long process.
It's a painstaking process. So my entire day was, you know, scan, extract. Translate print and look at matching, you know, basically matching the words between the materials. So by the end of the year, I'm like, this is , not alive for me. It, my entire day is just copy scan paste. That does not work.
So I searched on the internet. What is the best way to learn a new language as fast as I can as soon as possible. So among those answers , we're, if you go to a country and immerse yourself in the language, just forget a little bit, little bit about your language that you have and just immerse yourself in that language.
You may obtain it.
So where did you do? So I looked for countries that have not much incidents against Muslims. Remember post nine, 11, there was so much hatred against all Muslims, right. And I looked online and, and New Zealand. And at that time was the least country with incidents against Muslims. And it's almost like a safe Haven.
And for me as Saudi Arabian I didn't need any visa to go there. So just, take your passport to there. So I went to New Zealand to study English. Hmm.
Ryan Henry: Wow. And how long did you stay there for it?
A J: So my intention was to have the summer basically vacation between two semesters to go there.
But it ended up a little bit short before that. Okay.
Ryan Henry: Now, Ahmed, med was there a moment in any of this where you, you just felt the most apart from God or lost like spiritually, what was going on with you?
A J: Thank you for that question. You need to understand and, and Muslim mindset. It's not about a relationship.
It's about submission, so it's not like I have relationship with Allah God. And I feel like a part of close. No, it sets off religious duties that you perform and you try your best not to delay those tasks. So like praying five times a day, recite in certain things after prayer, before prayer, certain way to do evolution, which is, you know, cleansing your hand, that feeds in your face.
So you have to perform all those religious duties on time, if you do so, you're a good person. If you fail at any of those tasks, you will feel miserable. So so that's the mindset it's not about, oh, I feel close in my relationship with God or far away. There is no relationship, you know, God is far away from you and you are just, submitted to Allah.
This is according to the fundamentalist Islamic. Now some Islamic sects I have to say that they don't view it that way. They view it as a relationship as well.
Ryan Henry: Interesting. Okay. That's what that was. My next question is, if I'm talking to somebody who's a Muslim, is it a general agreed upon thing that, most likely they're not going to understand the relationship aspect or have they adapted that language of a relationship, which really is, is from Christianity, eh, they've adapted it into their, specific sect
A J: You know, in there you have to know your friend, what Islamic sect, they belong to.
Sometimes they don't belong to any Islamic sect and they just Muslim by name. And they may have that some Islamic sect, like suffi's, they do have that concept where they have relationship with allah while Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslim in general, they don't have that.
Ryan Henry: . Yeah. Thank you. That's informative.
, okay, so you're in New Zealand. Take us there. I mean, , what happened in New Zealand? What was that like?
A J: So understand that I came from a very conservative extremist fundamentalist country, Saudi Arabia. And at that time we had a religious police that were on the streets, you know, remember about those four, five times of prayers, all shops must close and the religious police would patrol the streets, saying prayer, prayer, or go to the mosque, go to the mosque.
If you don't do that, they will round you up and their vehicles and he will go to the station. You could be jailed, it could be fine. So and at that time woman, they were not allowed to show their face. They would wear a veil that is in black, that shows nothing. So a woman should not, , show any parts of her body that's in the fundamentalist Islam. So , there is no interaction between a male and a female in Saudi Arabia, if they're not related that is highly forbidden. So in school. It's sexually sexually segregated schools for boys schools, for girls, and there's no interaction.
So you take me from such culture. And he drove me in New Zealand, which is secular country. And , I remember, you know, going out of the airport in Auckland, New Zealand , my first time to see a female with bikini, I'm like, what's going on here? That was culture shock for me. Like, you know
this is? No, no, no. So why am I like, what have I done moments, right? Yeah. So, you know, it's like, where is the religious police here? You know, call them to come and arrest that. Of course, , someone who does not understand freedom to not comprehend, , why you, everybody is created equal. And they have the freedom to do whatever it wants and they are accounted before a just God.
And the day of judgment. Yeah. I mean,
Ryan Henry: I just, even just seeing like, you know, a woman in a t-shirt and her face showing was probably like, whoa, what's going on, but then you go to the bikini and you're like, okay,
A J: yeah, this is like, no, no, no, no. So that gave me a culture shock. It's like, , I don't like this, you know, this is not me.
This is not what I'm used to. This is not what I see. You know, I don't want to see it. So immediately I closed my eyes. I looked the other way when I see a female and you know, I went to the school and they offered me to stay with a family and I'm like no, no, no, no. Number one. I don't want to see a woman that is not related to me because family, of course you see the mother in the house, right?
Yeah. And then number two, I don't want to be with infidels. So they tell me, well, go and, , live in a hotel. I'm like, sure, my pleasure. So which I did. So I, went and I rented a room , in a hotel. And I remember that going to school. My first time hearing music in the classroom, I try to fight with the teacher to basically shut it down.
Sometimes they accept my request. Other times they just ignore me completely. It's like, what is this guy? Where did this guy come from? Yeah. . And so, , they basically in the school they'd been teaching us. English and, , the written and speaking and vocabs as well, grammar and writing other stuff.
Ryan Henry: Okay. Wow. . Culture shock. That's just, yeah, that's kind of funny to think about. I mean, I can't even imagine what that must've been like for you. I have a question. Can you talk to us and our listeners about Ramadan and why, why is it a thing?
A J: So Ramadan is a month in the year where Muslims fast from the sunrise to sunset dry fasting.
So you drink nothing. It's nothing you say, no bad stuff, you know, it's supposed to be. And the reason why Ramadan is Holly is because in the Quran, it's mentioned that Ramadan is the month that the Quran revealed in the Quran that the Muslims holy book. And especially at the end of Ramadan that night there was one night where Gabriel, the angel and other angels would descend from heaven into earth.
And, , in some Islamic sects, whatever you request at that night will be granted. And the value of that night is like a thousand nights. It's like if you do whatever religious you need to understand Islam is a point system. So if you do good, you take one point. If you do bad, you subtract to one point.
And then before the day of judgment, there is a big scale that way, your good deeds against your, your bad deeds. And if, , whatever scale would, , go up depends on that. , Allah, the day of judgment would, , God would grant you access to paradise or not. , so at that night, that specific night, if you perform from your religious duties, you will get, instead of one point you get a hundred point thousand points.
Right. Okay. So, because it's it's better than a thousand nights, , so whatever you do, it will be multiplied by a thousand. So that's why Muslims strive too fast to perform religious deeds during the month so they can accumulate as much points as possible. on the day of judgment,
Ryan Henry: wow. Okay. Talk to us about what happened during Ramadan on your night of destiny, is it real quick?
Is the night of destiny. Is that the night that you're discussing right now? Yes. Is that the name of the night? Okay. So yeah, Ahmed, if you can just tell us what happened during Ramadan on your night of destiny. So
A J: I have to go two weeks before that, and I'll take you with me to a church that is a church implant from the London metropolitan church.
Have you heard of someone named Charles Spurgeon? So Charles Spurgeon son, Thomas went to New Zealand as a missionary there to plant the church. So that church is called the Auckland Baptist tabernacle. And it's almost a replica of the church of Charles Spurgeon. So, , in that church, , 200 years later, the pastor, he pastored that church.
He, he challenged the congregation. It's like guys, we been praying for people from Iran, Iraq, other countries, and the Lord send us people from there and we share the truth with them and they come to follow Jesus. Today I'm going to basically take this to another level. And I want us to pray that the Lord will send us someone from Saudi Arabia.
So when they hear the name of it's like you're crazy, Saudi Arabia is the Homeland of Islam and who would come to New Zealand from Saudi Arabia, literally it's far away. Yeah. So so he said, let's pray. We believe that what is impossible with men. It's possible with God. So they started to pray and night after night, they continued to pray.
So for two weeks, so at that night, I like any other night, I went to the mosque before that and, , went back to my hotel, did my prayers which is a form of worship religious duty. And basically I remember that the last thing that I did, I just prayed chapter one from the Quran, which at the end of it, it says guide us to the right way, that the way of those whom you have your grace upon them and you know, all Muslims when they pray this, when they read this chapter or pray it, they say, amen.
So it's like a prayer. And I close my eyes and I remember, you know, all of a sudden they heard a loud noise and I opened my eyes and the doors of the balcony at my hotel , open and a light shining to the room and a voice saying, come to me, I opened my eyes and I'm on my bed. I can see the blankets on me and I can see.
The doors of the balcony on my right side. And I was scared, you know, it's like bright lights shining through my face. Imagine yourself walking into the street and someone, you know, dark streets, someone shine the high beam in your face. So it's glaring me with the sound. And so I'm like, come where I'm on my bed.
And as I'm trying to avoid this bright light, I, you know, looked at the other side of the room and I saw a picture of a house with white pillars. I've never seen that picture before in my life. So , the voice said go to the house with the white pillars. And in there you shall find the truth. And as it suddenly began, it suddenly ended.
So the first thing, first thing that I did is I jumped from my bed and I went , to the balcony doors and they were opened. So I went to the wall and I remember I put my hand on the wall, looking for the picture. It's like any hint of it, there's nothing. So I basically I freaked out and, I went down to the receptionist and I'm like, I think there's a jinn in my room.
I think there is a spirit in my room now, jinn is an invisible being basically. So that Muslims believe in so she looks at me and she said, sir, Have you been drinking? And I'm like, ah, I don't, I'm a Muslim. I don't drink. She looked at me and she saw that I was not drinking. My heart, , is, you know, basically almost going out of my chest.
And she saw that , I'm scared, I'm panicked. So she said, okay, well I can change your room. And I'm like, you know what, forget it. Can I just leave here in the lounge? So if this happened to me, you can see it too. She looked at me and she was like, what is this crazy person? So I remember she
gave me blankets and I sit there. I'm like, ah, this is happening to me here. I live in the land of Islam and Satan is attacking me. Let me call my travel agency and get out of here as soon as possible. So, which I did. So I call a travel agency. You stay on the line for so long.
And then they answered me and like, can you please send me back to Saudi Arabia? They said, oh, sorry. There's no, available seat at that week. You know, told me there's, , there's a seat open the week after and I'm like, oh, can you just ship me? They're like putting me in a boat or something. I just want to leave, take me out of here.
Ryan Henry: This place has gotten boom women in bikinis, you know, spirits
A J: come to my window! I'm in the wrong place at the rong time, take me out of here. So of course, you know, it's, it's God timing, which is the correct time. So I, was disappointed and, , so I sit there, I couldn't sleep because of what he saw and the morning I'm like who to turn to, I don't know many people here and oh, okay.
, the other students in the in the school, this is some familiar faces that I can sit there with them. If this happened again, they can see it. So I went to the school and the first class was speaking class and the teacher asked us to speak about anything we did the night before the entire class.
So everyone, , you know, stood up and spoke and, you know, some went to the mall to the cinema, whatever, and my turn came and I'm like, oh, what shall I say now? You know, but I'm like, Hey, I'm going to say the truth. So I stood up and looked, you know to the teacher and the entire class.
And I'm like, this is what happened to me last night. Crazy. I know. And that's why I'm leaving to Saudi Arabia the next week. While I was, , describing the details of what happened to me, The teacher, she was writing stuff on the board, but then she did like 180 flip. She looked at me and she said, you have seen Jesus.
And I looked at her, I have never heard the name of Jesus in my life before it's not in my English vocabs. Right. So I looked at her, I'm like, oh, maybe she's trying to teach me another words for Satan. So I'm like, oh, Satan. She's like, no, holy Jesus. I'm like, whoa. You know what? She was really offended. So I'm like a synonym Satan.
She's like, no. And you know, she, she tried to tell me that it's holy name is Jesus. So I'm like, did it, or just in my mind. So she said, you know, come to my desk after the class. And she ended the class like in the middle of the class. So I'm like, what kind of trouble did I get myself in? Right. And I'm like, ah, great, right now here's trouble in my hotel.
trouble in the school. Just on a fast track to leave this country. So I, I, I do believe that she tried to tell me who Jesus was, but her lack of understanding for mylanguage and culture and understanding, and my lack of understanding of her, , culture and language, because she's telling me Jesus right?
Did it, it, her, so that did not communicate and nothing less, nothing equals nothing and more confusion. So I left from there confused. I'm like is she trying to tempt me. She trying to set me up. Is he trying to kick me out of school? I have no idea, but I'm like, Hey, what, I'm going to lose more. Right. I'm going to leave the next week.
So I remember, , walking the streets. I don't know who to turn to. I'm troubled in this country. I feel really like cornered in New Zealand. I don't know many people there and I don't know who to turn to. And my mind was clouded with what's going on, is Satan trying to trick me is satan, trying to kill me here.
I'm far away from the land of Islam. So while I was walking into the streets in a part that I have never walked there before I looked on my left side and I saw the building that I saw in my dream. And you need to understand that building is so old. So I'm like museum, you know, but what kind of truth will I find the museum?
And when I looked at the building, there is no church. Cause I know church means place where Christians go into worship. Right. And then there no cross. But only two words, Baptist tabernacle and someone with very low English. He didn't know what Baptist means even a tabernacle. So I looked at it, I'm like, what of truth will I find a museum?
So I went there. I was reluctant to go there, but I'm like, what am I going to lose. Right. I'm leaving this country next week. So let me get in. So I went there and you know, someone greeted me at the door and asked me where I'm from, tell them from Saudi Arabia, it's like, sit here. And someone wants to talk to you and I'm like, huh?
What? Okay. So I sat there and I waited, waited, waited, believe me. It took so long because Brian the pastor there, he was other, you know, the other side of the, of the town. And when he heard that he came driving past. So he came in, do you know, I was about to leave. And all of a sudden they heard Salaam-Alaikum and Salaam-Alaikum, and Arabic means peace.
Be upon you. It's common Islamic greeting. So I'm like who is giving me peace in this funny museum here. So I stood up and I, and I saw a tall guy he's so tall. He's, you know, I think six, five something, six, six. So I looked at him and I replayed the greeting back. I said, walaikum Salaam means peace.
Be upon you too. And then. He said he did not ask me, like, what's your name? Where you're from? It's like, oh, sit here. Tell me about your dream. I looked at him like, who told you about my dream? I don't know this guy, like, what's my name? Right. So I'm like, he's like, oh, that's okay. Just tell me about your dreams.
So I started to tell him, and at the end, he, he told me, oh, this is ISA coming to you. And I'm like Satan is like, no, no, this is ISA prophet ISA coming to you and your dream. And he told me that the spot that Isa, I said, Jesus, come to me all who are weary and heavy burden. And that will give you a rest and Jesus will give you, I'm like are you a Muslim?
He's like, no, I'm a follower of ISA follower of Jesus. Right. So I'm like what does that mean? And that, you know, drag me into a long conversation with him until 1:00 AM in the church. Sitting in the bench you know. Pastor, he spent many years being a missionary. So he understood how Muslims think. And he's a pastor, also a a Dean of a Bible college in New Zealand.
So he also have scholarly knowledge in the Bible. So he was able to have those conversations. I understand where I'm coming from, understand what I understand and then bring me, draw me into the. The truth in the Bible and Jesus said, I will make you a Fisher of men. And, you know, if we want to expand the kingdom of God and do that, we have to play by the rules of Jesus and you have to be a Fisher of men to do that.
And I think that's this way to do so if he told me that, you know, stuff that I'd be offended or common things that we know, probably it would not listen to him, but because of the way that he did it, that he came basically in my shoes, I was able to look and see,
Ryan Henry: yes, that's amazing. It's like what Paul says becoming as they are.
Exactly.
A J: Yeah. So, yeah,
Ryan Henry: . Yeah. Tell us, . So, what was your first reaction? What was your first and thought of him?
A J: So my first thought was, Hmm. Why this guy is so friendly to me. Maybe he wants to go to paradise and kill me. Remember chapter nine, verse 1, 1 1, right. In my mind. Yeah. So I'm like, oh, it wants to spill my blood.
So, you know, in my mind is like, Hmm, I'm not going to believe whatever he's saying, but I'm going to listen. I mean, the church and it's a big place. There are other people going and coming, right. It's a busy street. So , he took me through what the Quran is saying about Jesus. And , from there, I asked him so many questions that I had, and he asked me many questions to, understand what I'm, , thinking then at the first night he said, oh, would you like to come to my house and sleep there so we can continue the conversation in the morning?
And I'm like Nope, I'm not gonna do that. I wasn't born yesterday. Right. So I'm like, let's meet here the next day. I'm going to my hotel and the next day I'm coming here. So they changed my room by the way in the hotel. So I went to different room. And the next day I went to, to the meeting and, you know, from 9:00 AM, till 2:00 AM what we'd been talking so long and , by the end of that, it's like would you like to come to my house?
You know? And I'm like no, , I'm not going to do that. And in my culture, if you ask a person three times, you have to say, yes, , they're insisting. So the, so for a third day he did that and I'm like, okay I guess I have to go, but I'm going to be careful. So I went there and he asked me, oh, would you like dinner?
No only water. So I can see if he's going to poison the water, you know, gosh, it's a funny, so he opened the tab, you know, bring me a glass of water. It's like, well, this is very cheap guests. Anyhow. So he showed me to the room and, , once, , he left the room, I closed the door, I locked it.
And I remember, , I put the heater against the door, so we'll not be open easily. I made sure the windows are shut closed. And I made the below under, you know, blankets who looked like I'm there, but I slept actually beside the bed with noblanket. So, you know, I really couldn't see it because I hear movement.
And later on through the years you know, I learned that actually, Brian, wasn't his feet, you know, praying that the living God will lift up the curtain so I can see the glory of Christ. That's why, you know, so he actually didn't sleep praying and I did not sleep thinking that he's going to kill me.
Hey, nobody taught me that. Jesus said, love your enemies. And so I mean, this is, this is so different. So he was not actually trying to kill me, but trying to bless me with eternal life with Christ Jesus.
Ryan Henry: Yeah. Oh my gosh. That is so crazy. So what, so what ultimately led you to make that decision to follow Jesus?
And what
A J: was that like? This is where it's really important to understand the person in front of you. Regardless of their religion, where they're coming from. So you need to understand how they're thinking. And if you look at the gospels that we have between our hands today, you see Jesus doing the same thing to the Jews.
And when he went to the Jews he did not say I'm the Messiah worship me. In fact, he's using terms like the living water, the son of man. And if you are a Jewish person in front of Jesus, when he says, I'm the son of man, your mind will go to the book of Daniel immediately. And it's like, oh, so he's with the ancient of days, he is God, that's why the Jews stone, stone him.
Right? So he, you know, look through what they is, what they understand the same way. Brian, , did that with me as well. So he asked me who is the word of God in the Quran? And you know, the word has gotten the current is ISA. Jesus mentioned in the Koran many times, like in chapter three, verse 45 of the Quran.
So he asked me if I speak my words or present who I am, do you agree? I'm like, sure. And he said, if God speak his word, represent who he is. Do you agree? It's like, of course, you know, it's the word of God. It's like, well, let's agree here that the word of God must be complete. Perfect. Holy as who God is. Do you agree?"
I'm like, sure. Yeah. I do agree with that. Then he said I want to show you something. That's the first time he actually opened the Bible with me, you know, third day. So he said, I want to show you something. And he opened the new Testament to John one. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. I'm not going to read this.
If you read this, this will make you crazy. It doesn't make sense. You know, as according to what being taught, right. He's like, no, no, just read this, this passage it just, you know, few verses only this I'm like, okay. So I I took the new Testament and I read in John one in the beginning was the word and the word was with God.
The rest of the story is found in Episode 12: Ahmed Joktan, From Mecca to Christ Part Two.
Ahmed's ministry, Mecca to Christ.
Ahmed's book, Mecca in My Wake.
